Ms Friese, Commerzbank marked the 7th German Diversity Day in late May with numerous activities nationwide. The market region East has been particularly active in 2019 – why is that?

Jenny Friese: Because diversity is just unbelievably important to me! For four years, I have been a member of the Global Diversity Council for the Private and Corporate Clients segment (see info box) and in this capacity I would like to be a role model and offer guidance, especially on the topic of “women in management”. In particular during challenging times, it is important to understand, accept and support people, with all their differences and strengths. On Diversity Day, we invited colleagues and clients to an evening event with a very interesting panel for a stimulating discussion on the topic of “Why is a commitment to LGBT issues a success factor for companies?” The feedback showed that this first step of our “Journey to Berlin” attracted people’s attention.

You mention the “Journey to Berlin”. What is that?

Jenny Friese: Over the course of my career, it has become clear that heterogeneous teams are usually the more successful ones. It was therefore important to me to further develop this approach. However, having diversity “decreed” as part of the human resources strategy is not enough – I make the case for managers at Commerzbank taking an interest in the issue, being tolerant and open and showing this in their everyday work. This is the only way that everyone at our bank can feel comfortable and develop themselves fully. In addition, employee networks help to support such a corporate culture and to offer new perspectives through people sharing their own experiences. When the spokesman for our employee network Arco (see info box), Holger Reuschling, asked me late last year whether I would be willing to take on the role of patron championing the issue of LGBT even more strongly within senior management, my interest was quickly sparked. From the initial discussions, joint ideas were developed, which were implemented conceptually this year in the “Journey to Berlin”. The term “journey” has a symbolic meaning. We are setting off with different events in order to make the issue visible and ensure an environment that is free of discrimination.

At the events held to date, you emphasised several times that living diversity is “close to your heart”. How do you show your commitment personally?

Jenny Friese: For me, “living diversity” is a personal conviction. It enables us to perform better and makes us more creative and at the same time more human. All of this is good for our personal and professional development. As managers, we can set an example here, too, and make a difference. For that reason, I personally attend many events, raise awareness of the issue and seek dialogue with others. In my current role, I have the opportunity to lend even more weight to my messages and ensure even greater attention is paid to the topic of diversity. Prejudices are not entirely unfamiliar to me either. Therefore, I feel obliged to make the case for openness and tolerance. It has to become normal for heterosexual and homosexual people to be able to interact in a relaxed way with one another – in both directions.

What advantages does such a culture of openness bring to Commerzbank and its clients?

Jenny Friese: As a company we in fact benefit very much from this. Studies show that employees’ performance is significantly higher if they are in a working environment that is free of prejudices. When searching for the best talent, we present ourselves as an open, modern and tolerant company. It has been proven that young LGBT job seekers pay very close attention to these values when choosing an employer. In addition, teams that maintain a culture of openness tend to be willing to tread new paths and to advance innovations. Our clients are making similar observations. Purchasing decisions are often influenced by how a company is perceived. When it comes to having a welcoming culture, we know from experience that LGBT people as well as their family and friends are particularly sensitive. At the same time, the group is considered particularly lucrative in terms of its purchasing power.

Sounds encouraging. On the other hand, studies also show that, compared to other countries, young employees in Germany in particular are less likely to take the risk of coming out. They are afraid it will disadvantage them in their careers. This is the case despite all the efforts made to promote diversity. What are we still doing wrong here?

Jenny Friese: Traditional corporate structures often cannot be changed overnight. And it is important in this process to include all levels of management, to raise their awareness, educate them and break down inhibitions. The colouring of our logo during the Christopher Street Day season in 2018 and the lively discussion of this that took place on Comnet showed that, despite our culture of openness, there are still a lot of reservations and unease. The activities are often aimed solely at the LGBT target group. However, shared events and measures such as the “Journey to Berlin” help to overcome these difficulties. To do this, we also need people who have the courage to go public and thus act as role models for other colleagues.

Is one of the reasons for this perhaps that sexual orientation is seen as a private matter?

Jenny Friese: LGBT is not a private attitude, but rather a sexual orientation that a person does not choose. This mistake very often leads people in the wrong direction. It is precisely for this reason that I can only recommend that everyone comes to grips with this issue. A homosexual person who won’t come out for fear that it will damage their career will never introduce the person they love to their colleagues and will always have to lie during conversations about the weekend or holidays. It’s not about discussing sexual preferences. But while male heterosexual colleagues can have a picture of their wife on their desk and can bring her to evening events or shared team activities, this normality is denied to a homosexual colleague who is not out. However, being able to openly talk about one’s private life is part and parcel of a human and positive environment. Arco’s experiences have made it clear to me once again that, in our company, too, there are still people who are not living openly and who do not disclose their sexual orientation to colleagues and, above all, to their supervisors. Despite the culture of openness, there are still no high-level managers who, through their visibility, can resolve the supposed contradiction between being out and having a successful career.

And how do you see the future? Where will we be on the 10th Diversity Day in three years’ time?

Jenny Friese: My wish is that by then we can successfully make the case for diversity. In addition, it would be fantastic if more and more people – regardless of their sexual orientation – take an interest in one another and interact with each other in an open, tolerant manner at every level and in every direction.

Mr Metzger, as head of HR, one of your duties is to act as a bridge between job applicants, employees and management. What experiences regarding equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ people have you had to date in your role?

Matthias Metzger: In recent years, our commitment to a diverse workforce has increased considerably, including with regard to LGBT*IQ people. For example, we have introduced a standardised testing procedure worldwide for our recruitment of salaried employees. This means that, even before the other documents are reviewed, an initial preselection takes place in which prejudices cannot influence our decisions. We want the best fit! In addition, we have held diversity workshops to raise awareness among all our managers worldwide and ask our staff for feedback on the issue of equal opportunities in our annual employee survey.

Having started its cooperation with us in 2019, Continental is one of the newer PROUT EMPLOYERS. What activities have there been to date in your company in relation to LGBT*IQ people in the workplace?

Matthias Metzger: The topic itself is not new to our company. However, in 2018, we decided to highlight it in a more proactive way. The first step was to hold regular meet-ups at our major locations in Regensburg and Hanover as well as regular participation in Sticks and Stones. For 2019, we are planning further activities, including a dialogue format with our HR board member Ariane Reinhart, Albert Kehrer and a number of LGBT*IQ colleagues, who will report on their experiences in the company.

What prompted you to become a PROUT EMPLOYER and what do you hope to gain from our joint cooperation?

Matthias Metzger: We want to send a clearly visible signal internally and externally that the topic of equal opportunities is dear to us. PROUT AT WORK provides a great framework for this because it increases visibility on the one hand while, on the other hand, offering different dialogue formats that allow us to learn from other companies.

You immediately agreed to an interview with us – thank you again! To what extent are equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ people a matter close to your heart?

Matthias Metzger: If, as a company, we can successfully address equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ people, which is a sensitive topic for many, we will have taken a major step towards real diversity in practice. This liberal spirit will then translate into acceptance of other lifestyles and working models, thus benefitting everyone. And it helps us to make taboo issues that are more pronounced in some countries easier to get to grips with. I firmly believe that every employee has the right to be successful – in their own unique way. And this requires a corporate culture that promotes and values diversity.

At Continental, you’ve really turned the application procedure on its head. One of the reasons you rely on diagnostics instead of CVs is that you want to promote fairness and diversity. To what extent do you think LGBTIQ applicants in particular could benefit from this?

Matthias Metzger: The replacement of our old application procedure is an initiative that many people worked on – and that also met with resistance and doubts to begin with. It has been scientifically proven than school and university grades are not a predictor of professional success, yet many human resources managers cling to them because they apparently make comparisons so easy. At Continental, we want to give all applicants a chance and ensure the best fit between the candidate and the job in each case. This can only be achieved through objective testing methods.

Mr Metzger, many thanks for talking to us!

Mr Seiler, in January 2018 you took up your new role, Deutsche Bahn AG’s management board member responsible for HR. A strong focus of your current activities is on recruiting. To what extent do you think LGBT*IQ talent in particular could benefit from this?

Martin Seiler: It’s true that our recruitment is currently at a record level: in the past year alone, we welcomed more than 24,000 employees to the group. These are new colleagues who add to the great diversity of our workforce in all respects: age, ethnic origin, religion, gender as well as sexual orientation. We value this diversity and believe that it enriches our company. Our current employer campaign is called “Welcome, you fit in well” and represents exactly this openness. All motivated applicants are very welcome, irrespective of their sexual orientation, gender identity and ethnic origin.

What activities has Deutsche Bahn offered so far relating to LGBT*IQ in the workplace?

Martin Seiler: There a lots of examples. For instance, we were a pioneer in recognising registered partnerships: all arrangements regarding benefits for spouses of our employees (e.g. travel benefits, exemption arrangements and allowances) have also been applied to registered partners. We concluded an anti-discrimination agreement with the works council that covers both everyday cooperation and career opportunities. Our aim is to have a corporate culture in which homophobia and transphobia do not exist. That’s why I am very proud that DB employees are among Germany’s Top 100 Out Executives. We support our internal LGBT employee network “railbow” and are also active outside the company: we’ve taken part in the CSD parades for years and last year we decorated Berlin main station for the first time with flags during Pride Week.

Deutsche Bahn is part of the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation. In your view, what are the objectives pursued by Deutsche Bahn with this cooperation?

Martin Seiler: Being a member of PROUT AT WORK enables us to provide specific and practical support to our employees if they decide to come out at work or with networking. We want to put them at ease, give them the chance to talk to each other and encourage them to tell us when something isn’t working so well. The numerous events and publications of PROUT AT WORK also enable us to expand our expertise relating to LGBTIQ issues in the workplace and spread new impetus within DB.

Your strong focus on HR and recruitment indicates that your colleagues have a special importance to you. To what extent are equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ people also a matter close to your heart?

Martin Seiler: As a group comprising 200,000 employees in Germany alone, we have been championing equal opportunities, appreciation and respect for many years, and as the member of the management board for human resources and legal affairs, I am constantly impressed by the diversity of our workforce. I am convinced that we need the potential of this diversity more than ever to develop the innovative strength that is required today and to perform better as a company. Last but not least, our customers benefit from an open, appreciative culture in which employees do not hide their sexual orientation and feel comfortable in their workplace.

Mr Seiler, many thanks for talking to us!

What prompted you to become a PROUT EMPLOYER?

Stefan Falk: Our VINCI Group pursues a determined policy of equality that takes action against any form of discrimination in employment and occupation. Diversity is valued and promoted at VINCI. As the Group’s German division, we also want to take a stand and to position ourselves clearly against discrimination.

Can you tell us about an initiative regarding equal opportunities in the workplace for LGBTIQ people that has already been successful in your company?

Stefan Falk: Specifically, we supported a person on their journey to coming out. We would like to offer all employees equal opportunities and give them the chance to come out and be able to communicate openly.

How are you hoping to get specific support from PROUT AT WORK?

Stefan Falk: We would like to use the network to share experiences with other companies and to be able to continue to make progress ourselves.

What objectives are you pursuing with the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation?

Stefan Falk: We want to demonstrate that this issue is important to us. Equal opportunities is not just a slogan, but something we commit to every day.

What activities are there at VINCI Energies Deutschland with regard to LGBT*IQ diversity?

Stefan Falk: As demonstrated by the VINCI Ethics Charter and many other measures, the subject of diversity is now an integral component of our manager training programmes. In France, VINCI has a network of more than 200 diversity officers whose main duty is to sharpen awareness and to hold diversity training in the individual divisions and companies of the group. We now want to promote and support this topic in Germany.

Why is it a matter close to your heart to support LGBT*IQ?

Stefan Falk: Because I have experienced in my private and professional life that people find it hard to talk about being different and are reserved in their working environment. Employees who are happy and feel comfortable are able to work more successfully.

Mr Falk, many thanks for talking to us!

Maren, this is your third year in a row as a trainer at PROUT AT WORK’s “Should I or shouldn’t I” coming out seminar. What is your connection with LGBTIQ and coming out?

Maren Borggräfe: When I was 19, just after I moved from a small town in southern Germany to Berlin to study, I realised I can also fall in love with women – head over heels in love! As I come from a very religious home, this was utterly inconceivable to me up to that point. I viewed homosexuals as sinners who had to strive to get back on the right path. So this was quite a shock – not just for me but especially for my parents! My mother sensed very quickly that something wasn’t quite right, so I felt there was no other way than to come out to my parents relatively fast. After that, fate took its course. My parents disapproved of my “unnatural” tendencies that don’t represent God’s will and they still cannot fully accept my way of life. And that’s despite the fact that, after some twists and turns, I have been with my wife for 14 years and we have two wonderful boys. From personal experience, I know the inner and outer distress that coming out can cause. But I also experienced how taking a close look at yourself helps you mature. It gives me great strength when I fully accept and openly live this part of my personality.

What experiences did you have when you came out?

Maren Borggräfe: Coming out to my family was a rocky road that began with my parents prohibiting me from talking to other people about it – even my own (younger) brothers, which was followed by times when I was completely estranged from my parents, and ended up with me realising to my surprise that support can come from unexpected places. For example, my grandparents and my aunts on my mother’s side were very supportive right from the start, and my grandma on my father’s side reacted surprisingly calmly. Other family members – like my mother – would not come to my wedding. That hurt very much at the time. What helped me was to actively embark on a journey of acceptance with the support of a professional coach – acceptance of myself as well as the people who had, and still have, difficulties accepting me as I am. It was very important for me to realise that everyone is doing their best and that I can’t bring about, let alone force, a change in other people’s attitudes. This brought me inner peace. I was able to reconcile with the rebel in me and thus prepare to get closer to people again, especially my mother.

With very few exceptions, my experiences of coming out to my friends and colleagues were very positive. The more open I am about my way of life, the more open the reactions are too. At work, I took a completely different approach to coming out. As I met my wife there while both of us were still in our probationary periods, we were very careful at first – until someone who we hadn’t actually told asked us whether we were still together. Rumours were going round that we had split up. After that, we no longer thought it necessary to beat about the bush. In fact, hardly anyone was surprised. No wonder! We were so much in love and it’s hard to keep that hidden. When I was introduced as a new joiner at a subsequent employer, I came out in front of everyone by saying that I was politically active in the LGBTI movement as a hobby. Here, too, the reactions were mostly approving and confirmative, although I could sense that I was perceived as being “different” somehow. Since becoming self-employed, I decide based on the situation whether or not to tell project partners and clients about my family. Just like any other heterosexual person relies more or less on gut feeling when choosing to reveal personal information or not.

Why do you think it’s important to come out in the workplace?

Maren Borggräfe: I’m convinced that people are at their most creative, innovative and effective when they feel comfortable in their working environment, trust their colleagues and supervisors and are allowed to show the entirety of their personality. If I’m using up part of my energy hiding some of my personality, it’s like I’m driving with the handbrake on. This is very difficult and draining. Strength that I need to put into my work is going to waste. I’m in a state of permanent inner conflict with myself, which makes it difficult to show people the real me. As humans, we have a very keen sense of when the person in front of us is not behaving coherently. This can be a problem for managers in particular. Apart from the fact that having a secret makes us susceptible to blackmail, we’re constantly walking a tightrope when we present ourselves – as is often necessary in the modern working world. The resulting stress can even make you ill and cause psychosomatic symptoms.

On the other hand, by being open about my identity, I can be a tremendous asset to an organisation and add to its diversity, which – as proved by many studies – is a prerequisite for high-performing teams. I can help shape the culture and pave the way for others to follow my example.

What would be your advice to LGBT*IQ employees who are afraid that their colleagues will disapprove of them coming out in the workplace?

Maren Borggräfe: As subjective as they may be, these fears are certainly legitimate. Everyone must decide for themselves whether, and if so, when and how they come out. That’s a very important thing for me to say, especially if you have a situation where a company’s diversity management policy portrays coming out as being desirable. The decision to take this step is very personal and may have far-reaching consequences.

I recommend having the courage to seek support. This might be a friend who we trust, a contact person within the company, for example from the LGBTI network if there is one, or a professional coach. PROUT AT WORK regularly holds a seminar entitled “Should I or shouldn’t I? Coming out in the workplace”. Facilitated by experienced trainers, LGBs can share their stories in a protected space, reflect on their experiences of coming out so far, try out new approaches and give each other encouragement in the lead-up to coming out at work. In addition, more and more coaches offer support for the process of coming out. Like me, they frequently come from the LGBTI Community themselves and know from experience what the particular challenges are. There are online pools of LGBTI-friendly coaches that allow people expressing an interest to find a suitable person in their region.

Many people who are about to decide whether to come out in the workplace find it helpful to look at what they have previously experienced when coming out in different situations.. What did I experience? How did I feel? How did others typically react and how did I feel about that? What helped me? What strategies and behaviours helped me cope with difficult situations? Which of them might be useful to me in the current situation? Which ones would I prefer not to use this time and what would I like to do differently?

Employees should also keep themselves well informed, observe their environment and assess the situation realistically: how open is the corporate culture? How are non-business issues generally dealt with? Who is openly LGBTI in the company? What are the risks of coming out? Am I prepared to take them? How important is it to me to come out? What are the benefits? Am I prepared to change my employer if it doesn’t work out?

I would generally like to encourage anyone out there who is still hesitant (and there are many more of them than we think!). Be bold and show yourself. If you are centred and are true to yourself, unexpected paths open up. What you put out there will come back to you!

Why are you so heavily involved in the LGBT*IQ Community?

Joschua Thuir: For several reasons, one of which is my personal history. When I was 19 and still in training, I realised that I could no longer identify with the female gender role assigned to me at birth. However, I didn’t come out as a trans man at work until I was 25, because I feared that it would cost me my career if I disclosed my true identity before becoming a state official with lifetime job security and privileges.

Being a trans person might be an obstacle to becoming a state official?

Joschua Thuir: Indirectly, yes. To join the police force, you have to meet certain health criteria that are laid down in the official police instructions PDV300. You’re checked to see whether you meet these criteria when you’re hired and when your probationary period ends. PDV300 distinguishes between men and women. When I was originally hired – as a woman – I met all the criteria for female officers, but later I didn’t meet the ones for male officers. For example, men must have at least one functioning testis, which is not possible for a trans man according to current medical technology.

So, coming out during my training and probationary period was not an option for me. The exclusion criteria forced me to lead a double life in order to continue my career: for five years, I was a heterosexual man in private, but I went to work as a homosexual woman.

Did hiding your true identity like this have an impact on your work?

Joschua Thuir: Absolutely. I constantly feared being revealed as someone who was living a lie. My efforts to pass for a woman also required an incredible amount of organisation, concentration and quick-wittedness. For instance, I had to react to female pronouns, although I didn’t feel that I was being addressed. In addition, there are some gender-specific duties at the police. Two concrete examples: I was regularly required to frisk women because of the relevant formal requirements which only permit frisking by people of the same gender (unless the situation is life-threatening). At passport control, I also frequently compared photographs of women not wearing a veil with women wearing a veil. This occasionally led to misunderstandings because of my rather masculine appearance.

In what other areas do you think your profession comes into contact with issues of gender identity or sexual orientation?

Joschua Thuir: As a police officer, I work with the law. However, our German Basic Law only recognises two genders and states that “Men and women shall have equal rights.” Police forms are thus based on a binary gender norm and are yet to include a third gender option. However, this is set to change by the end of the year, when a third gender is to be enshrined in the law.

A growing number of transgender or intersex people carry a supplemental ID. This ID card can be presented as an additional document in situations where someone is searched or asked for identification. It clarifies the legal situation and the identity of the person. It’s an aid to the police, so to speak. However, this ID card is not yet widely known.

Other points of contact can be found in asylum law. Persecution of homosexual and transgender people has now become a ground for asylum or refugee protection. Under the asylum procedure, these people must provide the Federal Office for Migration and Refugees – which processes and decides on their application – with proof not only of their persecution, but also of their sexual orientation or gender identity. In my day-to-day work, I’ve encountered people who have expressed their wish for asylum to me for these reasons.

What did you experience in your professional environment after coming out as a lesbian?

Joschua Thuir: Actually, I came out several times. When I was in training, I came out as supposedly lesbian and experienced some negative reactions from my fellow trainees. There were some verbal attacks like calling me “butch”, and non-verbal bullying like ridiculing my appearance in the communal showers. I also felt that my supervisors at the time had left me to deal with these day-to-day problems on my own. Once I was certain that I identify as a man, I didn’t open up to anyone in training any more. That’s a time I don’t want to remember. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the courage or strength to go to the next level of authority, nor did I have the relevant information, for example on VelsPol, the LGBT network in the German police, judiciary and customs authorities, to find a different way to ask for help.

And what did you experience when you came out as a trans man?

Joschua Thuir: When I came out as a trans man at the federal police force after those five years I mentioned before, the reactions were a lot more positive. But here, too, a few colleagues proved to be lacking social skills.

The next step must come from those higher up. Unfortunately, my attempts to make this point so far have been in vain. So I have to put up with colleagues who ignore me even if we are on patrol together and should have absolute trust in one another. I had to learn to deal with this.

After I came out, colleagues from the continuing education team were very interested in using my expertise. They asked me and another transgender colleague to prepare a talk for the aviation security training. To do so, I was even sent to Berlin for 2 days.

How did your supervisors react when you came out?

Joschua Thuir: The reactions of my supervisors at the time were very mixed, but by and large they ranged from positive to awkward. I asked a police trainer to disclose my identity to my direct supervisors and to ask them to forward this information to others in the command structures. I chose this approach to give everyone the opportunity to take a look at the German Transsexuals Act so that they could familiarise themselves with the topic before talking to me. Unfortunately, there was still confusion on all sides which couldn’t always be clarified or resolved.

As is so often the case, each individual has an important role to play in such situations. Committed supervisors will not tolerate discrimination. Others are less (pro)active or even shy away from conflict.

What would you like to see in future in terms of the visibility of LGBT*IQ issues in your workplace?

Joschua Thuir: I’d like to see LGBTIQ issues included in vocational training and continuing professional development because incorrect behaviour often stems from ignorance and unease. At the least, police officers should be made aware of exceptions so that when they’re dealing with people who are not heterosexual or cis-gender¹, i.e. 10% of the population, they can also fulfil their duties confidently and in a legally compliant manner.

Additionally, I’d like the federal police force – in accordance with its guiding principles – to take a stand as regards LGBTIQ employees, provide more education on this topic and have the Federal Ministry of the Interior revise PDV 300 such that trans and inter people can no longer be automatically disqualified from service in the police force. Lastly, I’d like LGBTIQ people not to feel alone either during training or later in their job and I’d like the fear of coming out in this organisation to become a thing of the past. To achieve these goals, the federal police force needs to increase the number of designated contact persons and broaden their target group by extending it from LG to LGBTIQ, as has already happened in some state police forces. The role of contact person shouldn’t just be something that is done on the side and doesn’t involve any obligations. It should be used proactively to increase awareness and counter discrimination both within and outside the organisation. Initial steps in the right direction have already been taken – I would be happy to continue this journey together, with the support of our organisation.

¹This term refers to people whose gender identity matches the sex assigned to them when they were born.

Jens, a few years ago, your book “The Rainbow Factor” received lots of acclaim from the media as well as from companies and universities. It seemed that many had previously been unaware of the business case. You are once again writing a book about LGBTI*IQ in the workplace. In your view, has anything changed?

Jens Schadendorf: Yes. Though I’d like to say this first: “The Rainbow Factor” is about Germany, with roughly two thirds about German businesses. My new book, for which I’m currently travelling in East Asia, South Africa, North America, Moscow, Rome, Paris and Amsterdam, will be published in German and English next year and exclusively focuses on “global business”. For German-speaking countries, it is indeed true: awareness for the LGBT*IQ business case has increased. However, distinctions should be made: companies have made considerable progress compared to four, five years ago, but they are still at very different levels. For example, just because you fly a rainbow flag above your headquarters for a week or two in June or allow your employees to join a CSD parade in a company t-shirt featuring a rainbow logo doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve understood the opportunities the LGBT*IQ business case offers. Still, both are a good start to improving or even just getting the ball rolling on visibility, awareness and appreciation for LGBT*IQ and the corresponding business case. In this process, globally operating German “corporates” are much more dynamic than they were half a decade ago, even if there are still deficits there. But as they say: Rome wasn’t built in a day either.

For the next step up in development, it would be important to have more actively engaged and out “role models” at the top as well, among other things. I know how it feels – I myself was located initially in the third, then in the second and finally in the first management level below senior management for many years. Out. German LGBT*IQ top dogs are more reluctant in this regard, at least compared to their English-speaking colleagues. I have every sympathy for legitimate career goals and different individual roads to happiness: but that annoys me. Those who – as top LGBT*IQ – have been blessed with many talents and opportunities must learn how to have an impact beyond power, status and money. Otherwise, they stand for the same “failure of the elites” we lament today – often unfairly. What sort of life is it when you know the price of everything and the value of nothing? Does that sound too “moralistic” or “heavy”? Nonsense. You can still celebrate work and life.

PROUT AT WORK is predominantly supported by companies. In 2017, you supported our foundation through a donation as well as through an endowment contribution – thank you so much for that! Why was this important to you? Why do you think it’s important that private individuals also support the goals of PROUT AT WORK financially?

Jens Schadendorf: As a down-to-earth Hamburg native and an economist who was “trained” abroad to be rational, I’m not prone to hyperbole. On the other hand, I’m happy to be inspired. And I think the idea the PROUT AT WORK Foundation stands for is fantastic. It is unparalleled in Germany. I also know that the road to becoming a foundation wasn’t an easy one, so I highly appreciate the fact that it was walked against all odds and the PROUT AT WORK Foundation could be founded in 2013. As a rule, I support any entrepreneurial behaviour that is willing to take risks in order to promote something “meaningful”. Even more so when – as is the case for foundations – it’s about improving “social conditions”. After all, that’s exactly what PROUT AT WORK wants, namely: “that all work environments are open to all people, regardless of their sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or sexual characteristics.” At least that’s what it says on the website, and it says something similar in the foundation’s rules.

I am, as I mentioned, gay myself. And I have been, and still am, quite successful professionally, both financially and otherwise, first as an employed book publisher and now as an independent global book expert and author. It may sound old-fashioned, but I don’t care: through my work as an author on LGBT+ business topics, I can give back to a society that has made many things possible for me. And I want to do the same – in a very different way – through my private commitment to the PROUT AT WORK Foundation. Everyone needs to make up their own minds how to live their lives and how to stand up for what’s important to them. But maybe my actions will encourage others to do the same.

What do you see as the role of organisations like PROUT AT WORK?

Jens Schadendorf: It is crucial. After all, activities around LGBT*IQ topics from companies or other institutions are one thing. The other thing, however, is exactly what PROUT AT WORK provides: public relations above the level of organisations, hosting events to dismantle homophobia and discrimination in the workplace, commissioning studies about discrimination and homophobia in everyday work life, publishing guides and informational materials for an appreciative, non-discriminatory work culture and cooperating with foreign associations and organisations that pursue similar goals.

No individual company is capable of getting all of these off the ground. PROUT AT WORK pools and processes current and relevant LGBT+IQ information, builds networks, provides advice, enables mutual learning – as a foundation and thus above and beyond all institutions. “For the greater good” if you will. And at the same time for the benefit of companies and organisations, executives and employees. After all – as studies show –, LGBT*IQ diversity management goes far beyond protecting so-called sexual minorities from discrimination. Above all, it focuses on the economic opportunities and potentials that are enhanced by this protection – for all involved. Underpinning and strengthening the awareness for these interdependencies: that’s what the activities of PROUT AT WORK are about, driven by its initiators and movers and shakers Albert Kehrer and Jean-Luc Vey.

Diversity has long been a topic at large law firms in English-speaking countries. How are your staff responding to the fact that the focus is now being placed on LGBTIQ?

Positively for the most part! Some colleagues question whether it’s actually still necessary to get involved in these issues. – If you’re a heterosexual man, it may be harder to see whether and in what form LGBTs are actually still battling against prejudice and perhaps discrimination or don’t dare to come out simply because they don’t know how their colleagues will react. To be honest, it has long been overdue that we offered a dedicated network for our German LGBT employees in addition to our successful “Ally” diversity programme and thus made another statement in support of openness and diversity. No one should feel that they have to hide their identity. And the advantage for our law firm is obvious: diverse teams are more multi-faceted, more creative and therefore more successful. Besides, in a presentation Jean-Luc recently gave to us, he quoted a study according to which the majority of LGBTs still hide their sexual orientation at work and about a quarter of their energy is wasted on building a construct for the outside world. This is alarming and at the same time encouraging. It’s encouraging because we can obviously further increase our productivity by creating an open environment. That’s a convincing argument even for people who are not affected.

What objectives are you pursuing with the PROUTEMPLOYER cooperation?

Although we have already set up an LGBT network, we see a lot of potential to expand our firm’s work to combat homophobia and transphobia and thus to further improve our corporate culture. We want to send a clear signal both internally and externally. We expect the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation to give us new impetus and new ideas. As lawyers, we need our networks, and the cooperation creates another network and helps our LGBTs to be even more successful professionally. – And here again: it’s win-win!

What activities are there at Linklaters in terms of LGBTIQ diversity?

We have been championing diversity in our firm for many years. We’ve had established LGBT communities for a long time in London, New York, Tokyo and other locations of our law firm. In Germany, we also want to extend our network for our LGBT employees, which is still quite new there, and establish it as a platform on which colleagues can get updates on current topics, events, news, etc. or which they can simply use to share their experiences. This is particularly helpful for new colleagues who don’t yet know the environment. Interconnection within the Linklaters organisation is equally important. A good example is Hong Kong, where last year the commitment of our colleagues was awarded the Silver Standard of the LGBT+ Index by the Community Business organisation. This makes us the first and so far the only Magic Circle law firm to have been awarded the Silver Standard. That’s what I want to achieve in Germany, too.

You are the diversity sponsor at Linklaters. Why is it a matter close to your heart to support LGBTIQ people?

I have too many friends, even of my generation, who struggle with the issue of coming out and suffer from being different from what they pretend to be. In my view, the legal sector in particular still lags behind the rest of society here. However, each of us can fully develop our potential and talents only if we are accepted and valued by the people around us (both colleagues and clients). I try to play a small part in this through my contribution as diversity partner at Linklaters.

What do you think are the challenges with regard to LGBTIQ diversity in your firm in the coming years?

Our goal is to achieve a corporate culture in which sexual orientation is simply irrelevant because it doesn’t matter whether a colleague etc. is “straight” or LGBT. And “it doesn’t matter” doesn’t mean ignorance, but openness. In my view, the challenge here is to ensure that the discussion which we need for opening up these topics doesn’t cause a backlash from individuals.

Mr Daub, many thanks for your time.

What is the D&I approach of IBM about?

Claudia Brind-Woody: We want everybody to feel welcome to succeed at IBM. If people bring their whole selves to work, they are more productive and they are more positive about the workplace and therefore our clients and shareholders benefit. The statistics of multiple studies show a 30 % productivity reduction, if people are hiding and spending their time afraid to be out at work. Afraid that being who they are is not acceptable. It is good business to make sure that folks are able to be productive at work. We want the top talent from all diversity constituencies. We encourage people to come to IBM and stay with us; we want them to advance because they are doing good work for our clients. Shall it be male or female, gay or straight; being a workplace that welcomes everyone enables us to get the best and brightest folks from all types of diversity.

What was the intent IBM addresses LGBTI?

Claudia Brind-Woody: IBM has a very long history of D&I that goes back into the 1920s. In the 1940, equal pay for equal work for women was established in the US, the first IBM diversity non-discrimination policy was established in 1953. We added sexual orientation to the non-discrimination policy in 1984 and added gender identity and gender expression to that in 2000. We also even added genetic make-up to it which means that you couldn’t discriminate based on your DNA-makeup. We have been very much a leader in diversity, based on the values of our early CEOs Thomas Watson and Thomas Watson jr., where they focused on valuing the individual. That set the tone for the non-dis­ crimination policies. For us, valuing of diversity is different from just having diversity. I believe it is in the valuing of diversity that you get the inclusion. We are diverse. We are a global company, we have different countries and cultures and people in diversity constituencies – old and young, black and white, gay and straight, people with disabilities, people who are multicultural – so we have all kinds of differences. The question is: do you value them? That is where inclusion comes in. Are we making the work place inclusive? Back in 1984, when they were debating about adding sexual orientation to the non-discrimination policy, one of our senior executives asked another senior executive: “Don’t we want to make IBM a place where everyone is welcomed to succeed?” That is the inclusion part. Everyone is welcome to succeed at IBM!

Why does IBM take care for LGBTI?

Claudia Brind-Woody: We have a really big company. It is very difficult to say by adding a LGBTI policy, share prices go up by certain figures or the like. However, we will say is that, IBM prides itself as an innovation company. All the research points to the fact that innovation comes when you have diversity. Diversity of thought comes from diversity of experiences and diversity of background. You could say that diversity of thought creates the innovation. We pride ourselves on our global technology outlook and the innovation that we do at IBM. That really comes from valuing IBMers all over the world. Now, we can also specifically point to the fact that we have a business development team that leverages LGBTI relationships for business. And they generate about 150 million dollars’ worth of business opportunities every year. That is just because of the relationship in the LGBIT business space enables us to close more deals, to have more clients, and to have an affinity with those clients. We have various programs on LGBTI business developments and they help our client teams serve our clients all over the world. We have LGBTI execu-tives leading different parts of the business. My co-chair Fred Balboni leads the IBM-Apple relationships for the entire company and is delivering value every day in that relationship. And he is there because IBM is a good place to work.

What does LGBTI mean on global business?

Claudia Brind-Woody: There are different parts of the world, where it is still illegal to be LGBTI. We want to make sure that it is safe for our employees, first of all. Secondly, we also want to be in countries where we can have business dialogue and leverage our business brand all with other brands, to make a difference in the discussion on LGBTI workplace inclusion. We have a diversity indicator in our human resources system, that allows people to self-select whether they are LBGTI. And we have rolled this out all over the world where it’s legal. There are still some countries where it is illegal to do so, like for instance the Nordics, which is surprising. In places like India, we had almost a thousand people, self-identify as LGBTI. In India it is still illegal to be gay. So, even in countries where they discriminate against LGBTI people, we work to create a climate where our employees know that within IBM, they are not going be discriminated against. They are going to be judged by their work, and how they create benefit for our clients.

What achievements can be reported and measured at IBM since LGBTI has been issued? Would people rather not do business with IBM?

Claudia Brind-Woody: IBM stands for values. Throughout history we have held to those values. When we had discrimination, for example if client did not want to have a black or female sales representative, IBM said, we won’t send you any sales representative; we don’t want you as a client. That is the living of our values. We are proud to live those values.
We have three basic values: 1. Dedication to every client’s success, 2. Innovation that matters for our company and the world. And 3. trust and personal responsibility in all relationships. We are not going to worry about losing business from a client who is going to discriminate against IBMers.

What is the learning of IBM about recognising LGBTI in their D&I approach?

Claudia Brind-Woody: LGBTI is not an easy thing to address and yes, it is easier to talk about women or other minorities. But we experienced the following. A colleague of mine in the UK who was at a MBA recruiting conference for LGBTI MBAs for IBM kept having Asian women stop by the IBM booth throughout the day to get recruiting materials and talk about jobs at IBM. He finally said to one of the Asian women that he didn´t believe that all Asian women he saw that day were lesbians. The woman said: No, but we know that companies who understand and value their LGBTI employees understand and value all the rest of the dimensions of Diversity. They value women, Asians, Hispanics, Blacks and people of other cultures because LGBTI is the key indicator. It is the leading indicator that IBM is good with their Diversity policies.

What is on the LGBTI-agenda of IBM for the future?

Claudia Brind-Woody: Every year, we refresh what we call in the LGBTI community at IBM our “Vital Few.” We bring all our 34 out executives together for a one-day workshop, where we discuss what we think could be the vital areas of work for IBM in the LGBTI community. We look at equal benefits for IBMers all over the world. We look at how we can make sure our transgender benefits go beyond just some of the Western countries. We look at education and leadership development because with the diversity indicator, we can match people who self-identify as LGBTI to our lists of people who are considered to be top talent. We do LGBTI leadership seminars like we do for top talented women or top talented young engineers, just to mention a few. We are bringing that next generation of LGBTI-IBMers to a place where they get to improve their leadership skills. We have various things that we focus on doing. Certainly recruiting top talent is going to be something on our agenda always. We want the bright young talents coming into IBM. We want to be sure to support and develop them. We are always looking to expand our Employee Resource Groups. We are very proud of them. There are 42 LGBTI resource groups throughout the world with 13 chapters in North America, 7 Chapters in Latin America, 15 chapters in Europe, 4 in Asia Pacific including India and chapters in China, Japan, South Africa.

There is always plenty to do in terms of where to go next and there are many ways we want to make sure to be moving in that direction.

We think that D&I is good business. When we talk about the “costs of thinking twice,” we do not want the cost of lack of productivity. We do not want that personal cost of people hiding and not bringing their whole selves to work. There is a productivity cost there. There is a cost of not being able to hire the best and brightest, if you do not have a good workplace climate. There is a cost of cities if you are not innovative. If you think of big cities, which are innovative, which are tolerant such as Silicon Valley or places in Europe, for example. We do not want to pay the cost of being intolerant and not having innovation to make the economy grow.

Do not forget, that some of our clients are LGBTI as well. They should also feel welcome to succeed by doing business with IBM. There are many costs if LGBTI people are not welcomed in your business. If you want to create value for your business, then make sure that you both have and value diversity.